Philippe's explanation was clear. The beaches on St. Martin are public, but there are "use" exceptions within the entirety of a beach area.


Makes sense to me.

I'm going with the resturants on this one in the legal sense, but when it's common knowledge that the beaches are public, how can the tourists be expected to know about the various beach restaurants' exemptions?

If there's a contradiction, it's government where the contradiction lies. On one hand, the government uses the "all beaches are public" to thier advantage with regard to public relations, and on the other hand they're collecting revenue by "sellling" (leasing) the rights to part of the public beaches.


Why doesn't the goverment post signs stating the law on the beach restaurant properties; explaining the "use rights" of the restaurants? If there's a dispute like the original poster described, the restaurant worker could just point to the sign: end of argument. Why doesn't the restaurant management at least have a copy of the law (on hand in their office) to show people who want to stick their blanket in the middle of the restaurant area? (or even the water line, according to Philippe)

Ed

Well the explanation is pretty basic too... Those concessions laws exist in France since very very long time, so the governement considere that they are known from everybody (which is the case in France) and are part of the common life of which people are used to.
So obviously the governement didn't take in consideration of course the lack of knowledge of the French Laws by foreign visitors, but on the other hand the law also say "Nemo censetur legem ignorare" (Nul n'est cense ignorer la loi = No one is supposed to be ignorant about the law) which mean it is the duty of the people to educate themseves about the law (which is the way the governement goes around...), and I guess, in the "people" the visitors are included, considering certainly that the lack of knowledge may be compensated by the vertue of "common sense"...
I myself, when visiting a foreign country, and I did many and many in my short life, I always tried to educate myself about the laws and customs of the place I am going to visit, and thus to avoid any type of missunderstanding or whatsoever... and in case of doubt in a particular situations, I refrain myself from acting or doing anything (including opening by big mouth...), because it is not my place to demonstrate that I know more and better than the people of the country I am in.
I notice that in the USA, most of the laws (or the transcript of them) are posted on signs... In my opinion, it ends up with a "forest" of "NO" signs and you feel that everything you want to do is prohibited in the "deNOcracy"...
I beleive that the reason for is that since it is one same country but with 50 states and then 50 differents laws code, but in fact much more since we need to include the county laws, and the town laws, and the village laws, beside the State Laws and the Federal Laws, and a lot of immigrants coming from different judicial systems it certainly may become confusing including for the citizens ( a/o migrants, visitors,...) of the country to know where they stand in regard of the law in a particular location (which is why there are some sign every where informing the public of what they are allowed or not). In France, the law is pretty much the same all over the territory of the Republic, which why there are no sign indicating it, and why the State considerate that "Nemo censetur legem ignorare".

Kind Regards,
Philippe



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Well, I think you're spreading out into apologist territory and "taking sides", Philippe. There isn't much point in faulting finding with regard to who's more justified in their attitude: the tourists or the restaurant workers.


I think tourists feel that they have educated themselves with regard to the beaches being public, when everyone tells them, (especially locals) that the beaches are public; therefore suggesting that the resturants don't really have a legal right to ask them to leave the restaurant beach area.

To argue that placing a sign at a beach restaurant property (explaining the "use" restrictions in order to avoid disputes) would deface the countryside is a bit of a stretch. I don't see any difference in that, and "no smoking" signs" or "no parking" signs. Surely there are "no parking" signs in France.

It's a situation similar to: "park anywhere you want, except in designated areas".

Ed

"Their" (spelling correction on first post)

Ed

Ed... this is my explanation regarding your question"Why doesn't the goverment post signs stating the law on the beach restaurant properties; explaining the "use rights" of the restaurants" and I cannot do better, I am stating customs facts and what the law says,that's the way it is. May be someone else will know more or better about "why". I am not going to debate what "should" and what "should not".

Kind Regards,
Philippe



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Right, how the restaurants handle any problems like the one described in the original post, is pretty much up to the restaurants.

Probably nine out of ten times, most people would just move on after being told that the restaurant beach area is reserved for chair rentals and it's not a big problem.

Your post in explanation of the legal rights involved is helpful, in that, people probably won't mind (as much) if they know that the resturants have a right to reserve an area for their customers.

There's been a ton of threads on the subject in the past, and your contribution finally offers a substantive explanation; placing the situation in a more agreeable perspective.

Maybe you'd like to take on the "tipping situation" next :-)

Ed

The analytic explanation of "tipping situation" regarding the FRENCH SIDE only (since, differently the Dutch side Restaurants have the legal option to add the 15% SC the bill) was posted on my old website (still active), and there also, I couldn't say much more than what I already said and explained about it but, the link is still available, if you are interested in understanding more about French "laws and customs" (and "litteral interpretation or translation of certain "english Notions and terms" ) as well as the meaning of the last action of the French authorities regarding control of restaurants in Orient Bay recently, however it would not be discussed under this thread since it is different than the OP questions.
Here the link (go into the English version, and information page):

[www.tabba-khady.net]

( I appologise in advance if some people are chocked by the fact I clearly states the name of an operators involved in this dispectable doubtful and dishonnest billing methods, but I am not supporting this kind of practice since it doesn't our profession!)

Kind Regards,
Philippe



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Ah, you've already addressed this issue. I had a feeling that was the case. Okay, thanks Philippe, I'll read it.

Ed